Transcript
Introducing Dr. Morgan Anderson
Kwame:
Everybody, welcome to Beyond Influence. We are very, very lucky to have with us Dr. Morgan Anderson, with a hefty 46,000 followers on Instagram, but I think that that's probably the least important thing about her because she's a very, very established relationship psychologist and therapist.
She also has an incredible podcast (Let’s Get Vulnerable) and a book (Love Magnet) as well, which we're going to be talking a lot about. Let's get vulnerable today. How are you doing, Dr. Morgan?
Dr. Morgan:
Hey, I'm doing great. I'm so excited to be here with you guys talking about all things influencing and building a brand. This is going to be so fun.
Scott:
Awesome. We're super glad to have you. And maybe for those who don't know, maybe (you could give) just a little bit of background. I know you specialize in attachment theory and attachment. Maybe unpack for our audience, who might not know what that is, your specialty and what you spend your time on and what your channel is all about.
Dr. Morgan:
So, attachment theory is essentially... I always tell people it's the missing piece to the dating puzzle because it will tell you who you are attracted to, why you're attracted to them, why you do what you do in relationships and the way you form bonds. Once you understand your own attachment style, it is such a gift. It is a game changer for attracting the relationship you want.
For me, it was one of the things that totally changed my love life and I'm now in an incredible relationship. But I can tell you, all throughout my twenties, it was a total mess and understanding my attachment style was one of the main things that changed it for me. So once I knew how important it was, I knew that more people needed to understand this and know about it and it really motivated me to start my podcast and start my brand.
Scott:
That's amazing. Is there an attachment style, like through a wall, blind? I don't know. Does this work for Kwame? No, I'm just joking.
Dr. Morgan:
Oh, Kwame. I have a whole analysis of your attachment style. We'll talk about it another time.
Scott:
As soon as we got Dr. Morgan queued up, I'm like, "Oh, this should be great because Kwame is out there in the open. I'm ready to go."
Kwame:
You don't know how many therapists and psychologists reached out in my DMs like, "Hey, let's talk about these things." Yeah, man, what an interesting experience to have your entire love life put on TV. It definitely gets a lot of people involved but I'd be interested to know for sure.
Dr. Morgan:
You and Chelsea have done a great job; shout out to the two of you. I just want to say that. I think you're a wonderful example.
Kwame:
Thank you. Thank you so much. We appreciate that, and I'll pass that on.
Scott:
So I'm curious. You studied psychology. You wanted to be a therapist, I presume, and went through all of your training.
Dr. Morgan:
Okay, I have to correct you. It's a psychologist with a doctorate.
Scott:
I apologize.
Dr. Morgan:
That's okay. Anyone with a doctorate degree, they will correct you on that because I spent 12 years in post-grad.
Why Dr. Morgan started creating content on Instagram
Scott:
Funny enough, I'm bad about this. My parents are actually psychologists, and my dad is a PhD psychologist, and I get it wrong often.
So I'm curious, you went through all of this schooling and studying to be a psychologist and unpacking relationships and personal dynamics.
What made you want to take that and transition into leveraging social media, leveraging things like podcasting to convey some of this message and to connect with an audience and talk to them about it?
Dr. Morgan:
It's such a good question. So I got through my training. I did licensure. I had dedicated essentially seven years after undergrad to building what I thought was the dream life for me. And actually, I was in La Jolla, those of you (who are) familiar with California. I had a private practice in La Jolla for about two years and I could walk to the beach on my lunch breaks. I had everything set up and I was living my dream life.
And I remember vividly, I was seeing about 25 to 30 people a week, and I would just sit there and be like, "Something's missing. I worked my whole life to get here. Something's missing."
And for me, it was the ability to help more people, the ability to impact more people, and specifically share about attachment theory, because I could only help so many people seeing 25 people a week. But what would happen if I could reach thousands of people? So for me, it really was that drive to help as many people as possible.
Scott:
That's awesome. And so with that, how did you get started? What were the first steps? Did you have a game plan of, "I'm going to dive in this way?" How did you get started?
Dr. Morgan:
So funny. I don't know if anybody else runs into this in the medical field, but I remember telling some of my psychologist friends that this is what I was going to do. And they would be like, "Oh, it's illegal to have an Instagram. You can't put yourself out there like that." I was met with a bunch of confusion, even from people in my family and my friend group. But for me, I loved Instagram, that was my favorite platform to take in information, so I just knew that I wanted to start with an Instagram account.
I've always been a writer. I love writing. I write for fun, still. I get up every day and I write. So for me, I loved quotes on Instagram. That's how I got I started: I was coming up with all these awesome quotes. I miss that. I can't wait for one day, hopefully, Instagram is going to be just a quote. We're just going to be able to have the little post squares again instead of all the video production and the Reels, because that was how I started. I wrote really meaningful quotes that people resonated with.
I started at zero. And slowly, I think my first year on Instagram, I think I grew to about 2,000 followers from posting every day.
Kwame:
Wow.
Scott:
That's awesome.
Kwame:
It's really cool to see things start coming along. And I think that's really funny. Maybe with Instagram's growth, it'll just open up a new Instagram quotes app. We'll see.
Dr. Morgan:
Hey! There we go. I guess Threads is like that. I don't know.
Kwame:
Yeah, sort of, right? As you started to really gain your following, what were your thoughts from that? I know nowadays, it's a lot of, "I'm starting to gain a following. How can I leverage that? Or how can I get some partnerships or whatever?" But I think from your history, you may not have done that. And so I'd love to know a bit about how you then took advantage of your growing.
Growing her Instagram presence into something bigger
Dr. Morgan:
Yeah. Once again, I know this is corny, but I really just wanted to help people. And I would just get excited about people sending me messages in the DMs about like, "Wow, I never thought of it this way", or "I never knew about attachment theory until I learned about it from you."
So I started getting more of those messages, and I honestly was just doing it to see what's going to happen here. And then it was through interacting with my community that I went, "Oh, my gosh, I think I can make something that will help these people." And then the birth of the Empowered. Secure. Loved. Program happened.
I remember, oh my gosh, the first client that I did (the program) with, I did it for free. Not enough people are willing to do this. They don't want to do something for free. And I can tell you, it's one of the best things I ever did. I learned so much about myself and what I wanted to create, got so much valuable feedback. And the next time, I was able to charge like 500 bucks.
I did a ton of one-on-one work where it was just me; I'm coaching people one-on-one. And then it wasn't until year two, after doing that, that I decided to move on to a group program and I started to hire team members. But yeah, in the beginning, it really was just a lot of this attitude of service. I want to make something that helps people. I still had a full-time clinical practice while I was doing this. And it wasn't until year two that I started to really go, "Oh my gosh, this could be my full-time. I could just do this." That was nuts to me. And then, yeah, that started to happen.
Scott:
That's awesome. We talked earlier in the first episode about that video. "I'm going full in on my content creation", or being a creator, and that leap of faith. Were you able to ease into that? Did you feel secure? Was there this, "Oh, man, there's a huge risk I'm taking on"? How was that experience of just saying, "I'm going to leave my practice behind as I know it and completely go all in on this new venture"?
Dr. Morgan:
I don't know that I recommend what I'm about to tell you, but I will tell you the true story. I worked my full-time practice for at least two to three-ish years while I was building the brand. There was one point where I was working 80-hour work weeks because I was full-time coaching, taking sales calls, building content, running the podcast, and seeing 25 to 30 clients a week. I really was only able to sustain that for a while.
And looking back on that, I know it was because of fear. I know I easily could have gone all in on the brand sooner. But for me, it just helped that I still had this other income coming in and I felt really supported. So by the time I went full in on my brand, I was consistently making over $20,000 a month. And then I was like, "Okay, this is a no-brainer" and then I was able to go full in on it. But I'm telling you, I still kept therapy clients. I still was like, "What if this doesn't work?" So I still would have a caseload of 10 people. But I can tell you, I have fully left my clinical practice and I'm 100 % the CEO and content creator for my brand and that's been (for) about two years.
Kwame:
I think you've made some really cool points that I think are in alignment with the social media world in general. I think you went on your own path, and you didn't necessarily go towards the full content creation path. It was creating with a purpose and just doing something because you enjoyed it and because you wanted to use that as a platform to help people.
And then another aspect of it was sometimes doing something for free. When it comes to even my partnerships, and sometimes when I work with a new company and I'm interested in them, the first thing that my managers tell me is, "Hey, if you actually just like their product, just use it and just tag them because you like them."
Just gain that initial touch base, that initial "Hey, how are you? I enjoy this. I'm actually using it." It creates such a different pathway. So I think that those are two things that people should really consider regardless of what path they're wanting to take down social, because those things are really meaningful.
Dr. Morgan:
Absolutely. A hundred percent. There's that trust that's built. And I think, for me, I am genuinely passionate about what I'm doing and I think that's so huge for anybody that wants to create content. Don't just go talk about baking if It's not the love of your life.
I have over 470 episodes about attachment theory, and people ask me, "Oh, do you ever not know what to talk about?" No, I always know. I am a nerd. I read the latest research on this. I apply it to things that are going on in the media. I always have ideas about it because I am truly, truly passionate about it so it doesn't feel like work to me. I'm one of those few people where it's like my calling doesn't really feel like work.
Building community & collaborating with other content creators
Scott:
We talk a lot about community. I'm curious if on your journey as a content creator, being a psychologist, being in this space: are there other content creators that you've leaned on who are trying to also go down the same path and you're sharing ideas or tips or helping each other on the way?
I didn't even know this, but we had an influencer who we talked to, and there's an entire pet creator Discord where they talk about supporting each other and the brand deals they're doing and best ways to create content. I'm just curious how that was for you in this space and if you felt like you had that support and community.
Dr. Morgan:
That's a great question. I will say this. In the very beginning of my journey, I was able to find a group of psychologists, and that was so helpful for me because it was psychologists on Instagram. And it was this permission slip of, "Okay, I can still have this title and be on social media."
We've definitely helped each other throughout the years. We have a group chat on Instagram and we'll all help each other. I just had one defend me in the comments the other day. So, yeah, it's really special. And I will say, I think the people I've met in real life, those are some of my closest friends. People who really get it, who I've had the opportunity to meet them in real life, and we're building brands.
The reality is that you need community when you're doing this. You need people that get it because your friends who are not doing it are not going to get it and you need those people that get it. So I've been really fortunate. Some of my best friends are people I've met on Instagram who then I've met in real life, and we have a weekly catch-up and we can support each other.
Scott:
I'm curious with that. What are a couple of channels that you, on your own, that you really like or in this space that you follow personally and would advocate for?
Dr. Morgan:
Oh, man, so there's so many.
There's one person who I just can't speak highly enough of. Her name is Nicole Walters. She actually has a podcast with Dear Media. And this woman. She's had a TV show. She has a New York Times bestselling book. When she had me on her show, she was just so real, so authentic. She spent like 45 minutes with me after the show, hyping me up, telling me how awesome I am, giving me business ideas.
This woman is such a bright light. I could get emotional talking about it. She has made such a difference for me. She invited me to her wedding; I'm going to her wedding this summer! We are friends in real life and she is a powerhouse businesswoman. I'm blown away by the kinds of connections I get to have just by creating content. It's awesome.
Kwame:
Yeah. I love the collaboration of content with the pure idea to just help each other. I don't think that that's done enough in some senses. Nowadays, you definitely see a lot of cool collaborations, and you know that those people just enjoy doing those together. I think we need more of those just out in the world because it just becomes more authentic and you're growing, you're learning something. And if it's genuine, you're not trying to take away from what that person is achieving. Because if I succeed, you can succeed as well. We can succeed together. If we make it less cutthroat in this environment of collaboration, we end up both growing in a way.
I remember I got an offer for a deal with shoes (from) a certain shoe company. We'll wait for it to actually matriculate. But the minute I got it, I've always had this inside joke that one of my buddies, Zack, who was on Love Is Blind with me, that I would get him some sneakers because he always wears dress shoes, no matter what. We went to a baseball game together and he had on jeans and dress shoes.
So the minute I got the deal offer, I immediately said, "Hey, I have a friend, Zack, who may benefit from having some sneakers as well. I think it'd be really cool if we could work this into a deal." And I think just for the sake of doing it and thinking that it'd be something that would help him out as a deal but also to just be a cool little perk that he gets through this... I just think it feels much better.
It makes us both just genuine about caring about each other's growth through this. And that's what I just... I think that makes for a much better collaborative setup through everything, including social. It's just much better that way.
Dr. Morgan:
I love that. Yeah, you've gotta have friends who are in it with you. And how cool that you could collab with him and do it together? I love that so much. I have so many friends I've met on Instagram. I could spend a long time naming them all, but I love people who genuinely share things that have worked for them.
There's (one creator), her name is Balkanina. She's one of my friends. She goes by Nina, but it's (spelled) B-A-L-K-A-N-I-N-A, something like that. She shares the best clothes, like her Amazon finds. I have bought so many things because of her and it's because I trust her. I know her. Everything I've gotten that she's recommended has been amazing. If I need a new dress, I go see what she's posted. And I think it's so cool how the way people buy has changed because we're looking for people who we trust to tell us what is good. It's cool.
Scott:
Yeah, it's amazing. We talk about that a lot as it is the future, I think. And we almost develop these relationships and friendships. And some of them, it might not be a two-way relationship, but you're so invested in what they're putting out and you feel like you know them deeply. There have been a lot of tech reviewers or car reviewers or clothes reviewers... I feel like I can trust them more than my own friends sometimes on making good judgment. But it is really amazing how that's evolved over time for sure.
I'm curious: for you, what's on the horizon? What are you excited about? We know you haven't dove too deep in the brand deal world yet, but it sounds like there's really exciting things going on for you so I'm curious what's next.
What’s next for Dr. Morgan?
Dr. Morgan:
Oh, there's always a million things, isn't there? I have an idea list like 100 pages long, but I'm in the process of launching a new course, which I'm really excited about. This whole time I've been a business owner, I've had one offer. So for the first time ever, I'll have a course that I think is going to be really, really helpful. It's specifically for people who are going through a breakup or a divorce and how they can navigate through that really challenging time and the exact steps on what to do. So I am full on in creating that.
And then one thing I'm super excited about is merch. I have merch, you guys, accidentally. I have this saying, a quote of mine that people love that says, "Boundaries are Hot". And I put it on a hat, and I got it just for my team and for a couple of people. I have so many people DMing me wanting this hat. There's a demand for it. So now I'm going to have this physical hat and I'm hoping to come out with that later this year.
Scott:
Nice. We'll have to grab some swag, and we can rep the "Boundaries are Hot" swag.
Dr. Morgan:
Yes, absolutely. (You) need to!
Kwame:
I do love that. I think it's really cool if you ever just went out in public and you saw someone wearing your shirt. The feeling of that would be amazing.
Dr. Morgan:
Right? Oh, my gosh. I've never had a physical product but, man, I'm really, really excited about it. It's going to be cool.
Kwame:
Yeah. Hey, it's time to just branch into as many things as you possibly can, as many things as your brand can take you, right?
Dr. Morgan:
For sure. And then obviously continuing to grow the podcast. I mean, ever since... Well, when COVID happened, it was this time of, "Okay, we're not flying anywhere. We're not going into studios." And now it seems like everybody wants you in studio. Holy cow. So I've been to New York and LA multiple times and Nashville... And just getting to go and be in studio with people, that's a really cool experience and it seems like that's really in this year. So I don't know if people will ever come out to Bozeman, Montana. I probably need to get a studio in LA but I just love those in-person conversations.
Finding brand deals that fit
Kwame:
One hundred percent. I think if I could ask, and maybe pry in this sense, you've never done a brand deal before. You've done extremely well with just leveraging your own brand for your own products and your own services and offerings. But is there a dream brand that you would maybe be open to working with?
Dr. Morgan:
Okay, fun fact about me. I am an athletic wear connoisseur. I love athletic wear. I also was a personal trainer back in the day. If Alo, Lululemon, or Vuori approached me: a thousand percent, yes. One thousand percent. That would be a dream.
Scott:
Okay, so if anyone out there is from Alo (or) Lululemon, hit up Dr. Morgan. Make it happen.
Dr. Morgan:
Or Vuori. We're open to all of them.
I have to tell you guys the funny story of one of the brands that approached me, okay? This was like two years into having my podcast. I get this random email and just so you know, I shared this with my whole team later because it's hilarious. These people were randomly pitching me this device that doubled as a vibrator and a shaver, and you're supposed to take it in the shower with you.
Scott:
Those things probably shouldn't be mixed.
Kwame:
Yeah, that sounds scary, actually.
Dr. Morgan:
Right? That was one It was the first pitches I ever got. And I was like, "What the heck? What is going on? I can't talk about this. This is ridiculous." So yeah, it made for a good laugh.
Kwame:
Yeah, I bet that was a great reality moment for, "Yeah, I probably want to stay away from brands for a little bit."
Dr. Morgan:
Yes. I honestly think that was some of what made me cautious. And I am in talks with a brand right now, and I shared it with you all. It's LMNT, it's an electrolyte packet. You can use it once a day. And I'm in talks with them because I use it every day, and I love it, and I feel the difference.
And also, they are a local company. They're out of Big Sky, Montana. So for me, the fact that it's a Montana brand and I love it, it would be a no-brainer for me. So I'm still in talks with them and that honestly, that might be my very first deal.
Scott:
I love it. I think what you brought up is a perfect good example of if you're stressing of like, "How would I even do an ad read for this? How would I explain this to anyone?" It's not going to be authentic. It's not going to come across. It's not going to drive sales. It might drive attention; I don't know if it's the right attention. But with this product that you love, that you use... You don't need copy. You don't need a script. You can talk for a half an hour about all the positive benefits.
Those are the deals to me where you just find someone who loves a product and they don't even need to be pitched on it or guided. They know the branding, they know the messaging, and they can speak with authenticity about it. And I think that's honestly why we buy on social is those types of interactions, not the overly forced or contrived (interactions like) "Here I got this script from this brand." It's like, "Oh, it has eight features and functions, and I totally use this." No, I just think it's the right way to do it so I'm glad you found them. It'll be interesting to see how that shakes out and if it works out for you, that'd be great.
Dr. Morgan:
I will say this. They've been awesome at sending me stuff, too. They've stocked me up and that matters to me. It's like, "Okay, they really want to make sure that I like it." And I really appreciate that so it's looking good.
Scott:
We talk about that all the time. A great way for brands to feel the waters, to get a lot of positive press (is to) send folks who talk about your products, send them some free product, get them to try it. So many content creators just create content for free based on stuff that they love and that they're using. So I don't think it ever hurts you in that case.
Kwame:
Yeah, I think it's a funny story. I don't know if you all have heard about the Chick-fil-A employee story, where... I don't know all the details, but to glaze over it. A Chick-fil-A employee (@MiriTheSiren) who does Chick-fil-A TikToks about some of the food was told to stop making TikToks about the food. And so Shake Shack reaches out to her and says, "Hey, we'll give you a brand deal to make an ad for us."
And she makes the ad - on a Sunday, by the way, which is when Chick-fil A is closed. Amazing. So all this went into it, and boom! It went super viral and it's everywhere now. And so it's just about someone who just enjoyed making TikToks about food. And boom. That's how the content is just natural. It feels like it's relatable, and obviously, everybody enjoyed it.
Dr. Morgan:
Oh my gosh. That is such a good story. If people are passionate about something and they want to talk about it, let them talk about it. That is great for your brand. And I experience that in my company, too. I have clients who talk about my podcast or who talk about what they've experienced in my program. And I love that, it's the best.
Maintaining a high standard of content quality
Scott:
Do you ever feel like you have to course-correct folks or they might misquote you? In the whole world of dating and relationship advice, I think about the amount of podcasts and people giving their opinion. I'm curious. I feel like with your training and your understanding, you might look at that and say, "Oh, man, they really shouldn't be giving that advice" or "They're not giving the right advice". I'm curious if you run into that when you're watching content out there.
Dr. Morgan:
I'm really particular about who I collaborate with and it's not about degrees or anything like that. It's really about the depth of understanding of what's really going on in people's relationships. There's a whole lot of what I call "bandaid work" out there, or the how-tos, where people are just giving advice on "The even things to say to win her back". It's all this surface BS stuff but it doesn't actually really change people.
So I'm really particular about, "Okay, do you understand how to change somebody's attachment style or how to change their relationship belief systems? Can you make an actual impact or are you just giving this fluff BS advice?" The sad thing is a lot of people can be really drawn to those fluff, catchy things and the real hard inner work that I put people through... There's a little bit more there of making sure people see the value and know that this really is the way to actually change instead of just having that bandaid.
Scott:
What happens when you get to the seventh thing to tell her and you run out? No, I'm just joking.
I think it's amazing the work that you're doing and helping. We all know the state of marriage and relationships is not exactly ideal in the country and the world, generally. And so I think the people who are out there selflessly giving to others, advocating for really positive and healthy relationships... As a dad of two and husband now of pushing 10 years with a big job and a lot of commitments, it's a lot of energy and effort to maintain a relationship and continue to thrive and work through challenges.
And I think about someone like yourself who's providing a resource to so many people with so many different types of relationships and struggles that they might be facing. And sometimes a little encouragement is all folks need, or sometimes some guidance can change someone's life. So I think... We talk to people who are entertaining (and who are) trying to make a name for themselves. I love what you're doing to help others and it's really commendable. And the fact that you can build an audience and leverage social media to create so much good is just amazing. Yeah, it's great.
The importance of educating people about relationships & attachment
Dr. Morgan:
Thank you so much. My dream... Kwame, you might find this interesting. One day, I want to have a healthy relationship dating show where we are taking people and we're helping them heal, and they're unpacking their trauma. They're learning how to show up securely attached. We're doing live couples coaching, right?
And it would be, hopefully, a really positive educational tool. I don't know if that would sell, right? Because that may be not as much drama. But that's my dream someday is to have a show that would actually really help the audience do a lot of their own healing work by watching people do it live. So stay tuned.
Scott:
I think there's a lot of people who would tune in for that. I think we have the opposite, which is crazy relationship trauma and some Dr. Phil and Jerry Springer, and all this. And I think the world is ready for more connectedness. I think, coming out of the pandemic and coming out of feeling isolated, a lot of folks feel primed to come back and be centered and find meaningful relationships and connect with other humans.
Just for ourselves, being face to face in an office... I think it's valuable that we have these ways to connect virtually, but just being able to look in someone's eyes and understand their excitement, their pain, their frustration, their goals, their ambitions, and be able to help them along is super meaningful. And so the show and everything you're doing... I think there would be a big audience for it. I think your following and the people who are tuning in now, for sure, would be the first to jump on that as well.
Kwame:
I think attachment and a few things that I really think and hold highly in terms of relationships, obviously, having gotten married the way that I did, you have to learn a lot very fast. And I think understanding our attachment styles was a big part of it. I also think understanding our love languages was a big part as well.
And so I do think that in any relationship, it's not this "Find someone and coast down the way and everything is going to be okay." I think that that is definitely a perception that sometimes is thrown around but when you really think about a relationship, it's consistent work. It's just always learning to make sure that you are doing more to understand. It's just constantly trying to understand each other a bit better. And so I do think that there's some really, really amazing and innovative ways to do that so that you both feel the joy in that work. And there could be some tougher ways to do that that may not really make you excited to go into it. And so it's really about learning what makes you excited about doing those things. I appreciate what you do as well.
Dr. Morgan, obviously, with 5 million downloads on a podcast, you definitely have a lot of people who are very interested in what you have to say. I think we're excited to have to get the opportunity to hear what you have to say as well. So thank you today for joining us so much, and we're excited to share this with the world.
Dr. Morgan:
Thank you so much for having me and (it's) just such an honor to get to talk about this side of the brand that I don't get to talk about as much. And I really just appreciate this conversation with both of you.
Kwame:
Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us.
Scott:
Thanks, Dr. Morgan, for joining us. Everyone, check out Dr. Morgan on Instagram. Check out her podcast, (check out her) book. So many different ways you can engage. (Her book is called) Love Magnet. Pick it up. So thanks, Dr. Morgan. Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. And we'll see you next week.
Dr. Morgan:
Thank you so much.